Posted by DAYO BENSON, Deputy Editor & LEKAN BILESANMI on
Over the past few years, he has cut a niche for himself as one politician who says things the way he sees them, irrespective of whose ox is gored...
Over the past few years, he has cut a niche for himself as one politician who says things the way he sees them, irrespective of whose ox is gored. Characteristically, he minced no words in telling all that the idea of who should produce the president, between North and South or among the zones, is primordial and unnecessary. This is in spite of his membership of the Arewa Consultative Forum (ACF) which craves power returns to North in 2007. That is vintage M.D. Yusufu. He spoke to Sunday Vanguard last Sunday. Excerpts:
YOU contested the presidency in 2003, the most contentious issue in the policy now is where the power should go in 2007, what is your position on this?
My position is that all this talk is rubbish, I don't know why we Nigerians are talking about power shift to the North, South or South-South. We have completely forgotten that this is a matter of democracy, this is a matter for the parties to choose their candidates from wherever they can and present them to the people together with their programmes. It is not something like packet of sugar that you take from the shelve and hand it over to somebody else. I know that this is the result of the crisis that characterized the 2003 elections at various levels, the local government level, state government level and up to the presidential level because there were no elections. People were merely handpicked and assigned these responsibilities and that is why they are all saying it should come to me, it should come to him or them. It is a matter for election.
Are you aware of any pact in the ruling party that after eight years in the South, power returns to the North?
I am never a member of PDP and I am never a member of the clique that appointed itself as distributor of power or power broker in this country, I am not a member of that clique. So I don't know what you are talking about.
The South-South says it has not had it in the 46 years of existence of the country, do you think it is fair to allow them to have power?
There you are again. We are not talking about North-South, South-South, Mid-West, this zone or that zone. It is not a matter of region or state. It is a matter of Nigerian public being confronted with programmes of various parties and choose whoever they want from any region.
So you don't support zoning?
I don't support all these nonsense. I don't support shenanigans about North, South, South-South, up or down. I don't support it all because it makes no sense to me. For as long as you want to practise democracy in this country, we must do the right thing because democracy is the right of the people to choose what they want. You cannot just stop them and say it is must be from the North or it is the time of the South. You cannot in democracy start this rotation nonsense in the country or in the constitution because people tried to put it in the constitution but thank God, it was rejected. So, as we are trying to entrench democracy, we should go ahead and do it well and stop this clique affair.
Are you a member of the Arewa Consultative Forum?
Yes
But the Forum wants power shifted back to the North?
People are talking the way they are talking now, North, South which seems to me as going backward in our political culture. It started in the 50s when you had this idea of the North, South but it was demolished by the founding fathers, Action Group, NCNC, only NPC was left with that ideology. But after a while, it got cleared from our political culture. So, don't confine me now to choose between the North, South-South, South-East. I won't, because it is not in my mind.
You are a member of the Forum and it says it wants power to go to the North and you are saying no?
That does not mean I should abide by what they say. It is a group which consists of so many people and I don't think such pronouncement is the official position of the Arewa Consultative Forum, besides, I don't think it is official for them to even take such position because it is very retrogressive.
So, this is ths official position of ACF?
I haven't a clue, honestly.
You talked about the parties presenting their programmes to the electorate, where are the parties apart from PDP?
PDP had a fantastic opportunity to improve our political culture in this country but they degenerated into the funny party we see now and it is breaking up. ANPP is breaking up, AD is almost gone except in Lagos and what we should be talking about is, how do we build our parties so that they can ginger people to take part realistically in politics in a democratic set up? I think you people(media) should stop thinking like that.
Like how?
Trying to promote South-South, North, East and West. Tell Nigerians what was obtainable before now when the late Zik, Awolowo and Saudana, through Action Group, NCNC and NPC programmes, held sway. And that was why the Action Group made a lot of in- road into the North, winning membership in the Houses of Assembly, NCNC did same, NPC same, they were trying to sell their ideas inspite of the regions at that time but it was not really based on ethnic or any of such nonsense. They were producing their own ideas so much so that the leader of opposition in the Eastern Region was an Action Group member. In the North, the same thing, it was the Action Group that was leader of opposition.
All these happened because they were not relying on this primordial idea of I am Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa. Of course, there were regions then which made up the federation, it was better arranged than what we have now because each region, in addition to the Nigerian constitution, had its own constitution and yet we were able to survive until the military came in and destroyed everything.
What do you think is responsible for the near absence of political ideology in the polity?
Honestly, I would like some of our sociologists in the universities to come up with a good explanation but I think we can trace it, for us laymen, to what happened in 1966 , the military regime from 1966 until 1979, it was all military affair. Our people had even forgotten how to vote, what the ballot papers looked like. But, now, we are going back to democratic set up. And it was during this period of military intervention that we lost our thinking about democracy.
One of the ANPP governors moved over to PDP while the others are rearing to move over very soon, does this bother you?
The ANPP disintegration reminds me of what Chief Olu Falae was saying that Obasanjo only believes in one party structure, of course in writing and having said so. So, that is why PDP went out of its way through Obasanjo leadership to destroy the parties and turned them into what we have now, starting with AD, then ANPP. To me, the PDP is a dominant party, but as God will have it, PDP itself now is experiencing the same problem so much so that it is degenerating like the other parties.
You said the president uses people to destroy other parties, is your party affected by this?
I don't think he considers my party anything worth spending their effort to bother themselves about. Before they reached us, the ANPP and AD were the real parties that could give them problems.
May be if they finish with them, they may come to us if they found out that that we are making in-roads into the minds of the Nigerian people.
What do you think of the president in terms of structure of political parties he believes in?
He does not believes in any political democracy, he believes in any type of situation we are seeing now and he is creating all this confusion which we are going to inherit as his legacy.
What do you think is the solution to the PDP dominance in the polity?
They are disintegrating, unfortunately Obasanjo embarked on this idea of third term and he perceived the idea which distorted a lot of things. Elections are some months away now and what you see is almost the same idea. I know about 10 presidential candidates from the North, I don't know how many they are from the South, so you can see that they are just generating confusion all over the place. But I think we have to wait and see when the parties hold their congresses.
Ahead of 2007, what do you look up to from the opposition in terms of challenge to PDP?
Well, the challenge, we have to go back, I think, to what happened in the ANPP during the last elections in 2003 which produced governors in certain states especially Kano. The actual voters should make sure that when they put their ballot papers in the boxes, they make sure they are counted as the law requires them to be counted without being taken out so that the result will not appear later with somebody who never appeared on the field to contest the election.. So may be when Nigerians start taking these measures by making sure that their votes are not stolen, then, we may be getting somewhere which I think would manifest in the next elections if at all they allow them to hold.
Many people have expressed concern over the feasibility of the elections next year? Do you share the same concern?
Well, we have to fear because it looks like we have not seen the end of this third term agenda because the rumour going on now is that Obasanjo wants to create a situation whereby there would be no peace so that there will be state of emergency to delay the election so that he can continue to stay. Well, it looks like it is going that way because this crisis in Anambra State is most uncalled for. The situation in the Niger-Delta is also uncalled for. The government allowed it to degenerate into that level. So, all appear to be another attempt to do the third term in another way.
How it can be avoided?
My own view is, I don't think there is any need to avoid it. Let us get on to it and have a full scale revolution, it may be able for us to start on a new scale and start re-arranging our politics differently because if Obasanjo and PDP would not allow us to evolve peacefully, then, let us give them what they want.
Don't you think the revolution can take you along with it?
Look, when you demand for your right, you don't go in hoping that you end up unscathed. You may lose a limb, leg, you may even lose your head.
So you are not scared?
I can't be scared by these rascals.
Are you saying this as a personal opinion or as the position of the North?
Which North, I don't represent any North. I am M .D.Yusufu. I thought that was why you came here.
You said PDI is in crisis, are you referring to the crisis between the president and his vice?
Of course you know of the Lar and Ali factions in the party and another faction is coming up. That is the crisis I am talking about.
But what do you think of the crisis between the president and his vice?
Well, let then sort it out themselves, this is part of the incapacity of PDP to govern this country. You are having a problem at that stage which is not only affecting their persons but it is spreading right down the party and the country generally. We should get rid of the party.
That is the problem, how do you get rid of the party?
That is what we hope it will eventually be. We have just about eight to nine months to elections and I wish that this crisis happened a year or so ago, then we would have really sorted out the problem.
But you don't look like a fighter?
I am not a soldier, I am a policeman. A policeman tries to bring peace.
At the last count, there are about 33 registered political parties and more are still coming. Do you think the country needs that number of political parties at this point in time?
What I don't like is the idea of registering political parties, it has got nothing to do with INEC to sit down to decide who to register as a political party. Let the people come up with their parties. For example, Itsekiri Local Government, there can be a political party that is mainly for a particular local government. I think what should be done is to allow even independent candidates in an election. All you need is just give a period, say, several months before the election within which any party wanting to contest elections must come up with its slogan, symbols that would be displayed in the poll and let the people choose any of the parties. The rest is left to them to go and, if my party gets 15%, yours gets 20%, his gets 10%, it means, for us to form a government, we must meet to agree to produce programmes that we are going to follow. That is the essence of politics. There must be coalition, not one party in power and the others in opposition, no. Look at India, the parties that formed the present government are many. They had to sit down and agree on what they want to pursue and produce the programmes which will satisfy each of the parties, that is the essence of politics, not military or PDP version.
A lot of concerns have been expressed about the ability of INEC to play the fair role of an umpire. Do you think INEC is well equipped enough to conduct a credible election in 2007?
We have been criticizing INEC right from the word go, beginning with this idea that each party must produce programmes and constitutions for INEC to approve before registering and to contest elections. The last chairman of INEC, Guobadia, was on television saying that some of the parties did not deserve to exist ! Who was he to determine that? Let the people determine, allow the people to go and explain their programmes to the people. The moment they start assuming certain powers for themselves, then we are in trouble. They are only there to record what number of parties contesting in any elections, record the exact in the ballot and announce to the people who won, that is their duty. Of course, we disturb them by even trying to get money from the government to pay for the parties, all these are useless innovations which should not be allowed .
Some even founded these parties because of the government fund?
Yes, that is correct.
Some see the EFCC actions as selective justice, do you agree?
I am talking about my own area, the police. They came into prominence by arresting the inspector general of police, saying that he stole certain amount of money. For me, I would like to see the actual amount of money he stole from the police allocated fund. The police fund is well known because it goes to the National Assembly, they budget and approve. Now, the amount of money they accused Balogun of stealing was more than the budget of the police, yet, nobody complained in the police that their salaries were not paid or they were not allowed to function because of lack of money. So, that gives me the opportunity to ask a lot of questions.
This extra money, where was it from which was more than the money budgeted for the police? Where did inspector general get it from? What was happening in the police that inspector general of police can put his hands into the vote of the police and take the money? So, when you add it all up, you then start wondering, what were they doing? Who is directing them? I think that is where the question of being selective comes in.
The EFCC also said they are going to screen candidates for the elections and if you are found wanting, you will not contest, how do you react to this?
Well, normally, I think I remember in those days when we were administrative officers in the field, organising local government elections, the electoral law would say anybody convicted from a certain date or less than five years before the election can be disqualified or somebody must pay his taxes, must produce this year's tax clearance before your name is allowed on the ballot papers. I don't know what else they are going to ask, whether what they are saying also reflects in the electoral law.
I think what they are talking about is that those who have looted the treasury of the country would not be allowed to contest?
Well, there are a lot of stories about who have looted this country but is that enough to prevent a man from running? If you say they are looters, you must produce evidence, you must prove it.
There is a Bill that seeks to empower the EFCC to arrest without warrant which runs counter to the provisions of the constitution
Is that a bill or order by the government because if it is a bill, we wait and see whether the National Assembly will pass it, if they pass it, then it becomes law and then we have to abide by it.
But what do you think of it personally?
What I think does not matter because this government has committed so many illegalities, they have no regard for law and order, so what is M.D. Yusufu's view to that?
You were former inspector general of police in this country. Has the police performed its constitutional role very well in the last seven years of this democracy?
There are two things you should look at. Are the police truly being fully provided what the government should provide to them?.
You confronted the late Gen. Abacha when everybody was running for cover, what was your driving force then?
But I thought you told me I didn't look like a fighter a while ago. I didn't fight Abacha. If you remember, Abacha produced a transition programme and asked everybody to take part in it and that was what I did, not myself alone, a lot of people did.
They joined their parties and got elected into the local government offices, into the state Houses of Assembly, even governors, it was only when it came to presidential elections, nobody turned up, and that was why I thought in order to complete the programme, I should just be there and probably by so doing, other people may join me.
Was there no threat to your life?
Believe me, nobody ever threatened me.
Are you saying you don't support government privatization policy?
Well, I don't support privatization because the ordinary man is not considered during the privatization. See what they did with the privatization of NITEL and the on-going privatization of PHCN. There are certain things in those days which we knew as essential services, water, telephone, electricity, postal services. These must be operated for the ordinary man, not given to private hands; but the postal services was actually gone until it started rising recently through the effort of that gentleman that died in the plane crash (Argungu). This is the type of things we want to see for the ordinary people, not selling everything.
Would you say democracy has been working in the last seven years?
It may have worked for some people but, for me, I would have loved to see a lot of things, not only what we are seeing now. But the worst things are the abuses, government has not been obeying the law. Ordinary services which are supposed to help the ordinary man are not there.
So these are some of the things you hope to se in 2007 when a new government is in place?
Yes, we hope so. We will see what the political parties come up in terms of programmes and see what they are going to offer us.
What does the crisis between the president and his vice portend for this democracy?
Without apportioning blames, I think the blame should go to the president. How can you as the boss start this shadow boxing with your own vice? It is very bad.
If you wee in his shoes, what would you have done?
I would have worked very well with my vice, we were both elected. Again, we don't even know why they are fighting.
It is because of succession ...
What is your business in that? When you finish your term, whoever is coming should be allowed to come. Why would you say I don't want this , I don't want this? Finish your term and go and let Nigerians elect their leaders.
Are you contesting in 2007?
No
Why?
If you can give me money
You mean you are broke?
No, the question of money for election is not a matter of being broke. Being broke would mean you need money to buy a new car, fuel. The money involved is more than that.
So, where did you get money in 2003 when you contested?
There was no need for such money then. We are talking about now. If you remember, I was the only one in the field, I needed money to pay for bill boards and talking to you people, that was all. And you saw what happened also because I didn't have enough money to follow it to the ballot boxes.
Which means the system is now too expensive for people like you?
Yes, you know the moment the people in PDP came in.....
Who are you supporting?
As I have said, I am waiting for the aspirants programmes. I am not going to back you because you are my friend. I want to see what you are going to do for the people so that I can benefit, my family can benefit, the members of my community can benefit and not vote for you to go and make all the money and disappear over night, no.
Do you support the view that all those who have ruled this country before should not come again?
All I would say is, let them come out if they want to come out but Nigerians will decide.
How would you assess the presidential aspirants that have come out so far?
I told you about 10 coming from the North, about four or five coming from the South, I don't know the real number now. Let us see the programmmes they are going to come up with. In any event, the place seems to be quite crowded and I don't think I will put myself in that type of crowd, I better stay out of it.
And watch from the sideline?
Not sideline, I will have interest in whoever comes out with good programmes, I will campaign for such a person. Look at the reforms, it was not done by the public.
Even Babangida, when he was going to launch SAP, he brought it out and said people should debate and discuss it, not even the National Assembly discussed any of those things they are praising themselves for. We want Nigerians to know what they are going in for at any given moment. The person must review it and bring it out for public discussion.
What if PDP wins in 2007?
I don't think they are in a position to win
What if they do?
I don't know if you noticed. You know the National Assembly is more powerful than the presidency? After the third term nonsense, the National Assembly is beginning to know and realise its position and this is what we hope will develop in this country. The judiciary, may be later, they will catch up but the National assembly is the way, I think , to realising how powerful they are.