Posted by By CHIDI OBINECHE on
Chief Anyim Pius Anyim has relived his days as Senate President, the crises of confidence between him and former president, Olusegun Obasanjo and placed his survival from impeachment squarely on the doorsteps of God, and his colleagues.
Chief Anyim Pius Anyim has relived his days as Senate President, the crises of confidence between him and former president, Olusegun Obasanjo and placed his survival from impeachment squarely on the doorsteps of God, and his colleagues.
Tracing the genesis of the celebrated face-off, in an interview with Daily Sun in Abuja recently, Anyim says he and Obasanjo became estranged when 'they were test-running the plan for third term in office for the president."
He explained further: 'Obviously, my position was very clear, not in the sense that it was discussed with me, and I said no outrightly, but somehow they knew that if it came to me, I will not even entertain it. So they decided to do a test-run and it didn't fly. Obviously, that was the final point of disagreement."
Anyim further explains that he inherited a lot of turbulence on assumption of office but was able to get his colleagues and the executives to a common understanding.
Regretting that Nigerians misunderstood him and the substance of the festering crises, he recounts the experience thus: 'The truth of the matter was that before then, it was the executive that wanted to remove the Speaker of the House of Representatives. It did not work. Two, when we were not getting on, on the basis of principles, they tried to remove me. It was not possible. It was following that, that the move against the executive came."
On his survival from the onslaught that came, he says, 'The truth is that if your hands are clean and God is with you, your principles are right, then obviously, God will defend you. Yes, if you have no skeleton in your cupboard, God will uphold you. I think my colleagues stood by me because they saw no wrong in me. God stood by me, because I offended no one. I was simply living the will of God, accounting to my calling. So, it was not easy to flush me out the way they thought."
Saying that the on-going probes and revelations of the misdeeds of Obasanjo in office have vindicated him, he expressed regrets that Nigerians, who vilified him during the heady days, did not know what he knew.
'I felt I was misunderstood by Nigerians. As at the time the friction between the executive and us started, Nigerians didn't know what we knew. We were so vilified. People were attacking us from left and right, without understanding what we knew.
'Eventually, today, I think I can say I am the happiest man because I have been vindicated by the events that followed after me. Not because I even spoke a word. I stood on a principle that because I have had a confidential relationship with the former president, I would not discuss him. I feel reluctant at all times to discuss him.
'But without my discussing him or exposing him, Nigerians can now see what we knew much earlier, which was the basis of the problem, which they didn't know."
Anyim further delineates the various stages of the third term project of the ex-president.
According to him; 'One of the stages was to clean up the National Assembly and remove everybody that was independent-minded, which was done in 2003. The other stage was to take over the party, which was effectively done.
'Another stage was to destabilize the leadership of the ethnic groups. It was effectively done. Another stage was to cow the governors, to intimidate them. This too, was effectively done. At every stage, you may not know that this was the plan. Some would simply fall victims and others thought that things were taking a natural course, without knowing that there were underlying currents. So, people were whipped into line."
He speaks further on his recent bid to become the National chairman of the Peoples Democratic Party, (PDP), his relationship with ex-governor Sam Egwu, the electoral tribunals, among others.
Excerpts.
You won the hearts of Nigerians when you announced your retirement from politics in 2003. This was unNigerian, given your young age, and political achievements. What made you take the decision?
I am sure I was misinterpreted. What I announced was that I was not going to seek re-election, not retirement from politics. I was young and I am still young, too young to retire. I resolved not to seek re-election to the Senate at the time I was leaving as Senate President.
What made you decide not to seek re-election?
There are a number of reasons, but principally, having become the Senate President, which also doubles as the chairman of the National Assembly, I saw no reason to return to the floor of the Senate or should I again force myself to become the Senate President. That is not gentlemanly, so to say. That is one.
Two, the political situation at the time, which I have been vindicated, because if things had happened the way I suggested, I had proposed, I had insisted, we wouldn't have been having the probes we are having today. We wouldn't have been having the disaster we are having in the courts today. So, the political environment then was such that I could not satisfy my conscience and I thought I should not be part of it.
You made some proposal, contrary to the widely held belief that you kept quiet while all those things were going on?
No. Nobody will think so because by the time I left, we had serious misunderstanding or if you like, a little friction with the executive. It was based on the principled position I took which they were not very comfortable with. So, it wasn't as if I was fired. Anybody thinking so, was not following events.
You had misunderstanding with the executive. Would you say that effectively informed your decision not to seek re-election?
Well, I have said that the political environment was such that things we believed should be done the way they should be done were not so done. Rather, we were even expected to do things otherwise. We were not ready to continue along that line, and so we withdrew from the system. It is not a personal thing. It is a matter of principle. The point I want to demonstrate is that if you are serving the public, you should be able to take responsibility and that means, you should be able to serve according to your conscience and not because you are driven by the quest to remain in office or the desire to have a fat purse and so on. But unfortunately, if the vision you have is dwarfed or aborted, there is no need hanging in there.
There were moves during your celebrated tiff with the executive for your removal from office. How did you survive?
Obviously, they tried to and that was the beginning of the problem. You know at times, people will only see the aspect that the National Assembly tried to start an impeachment procedure against the president, but the truth of the matter was that before then, it was the executive that wanted to remove the speaker of the House of Representatives. It did not work. Two, when we were not getting on, on the basis of principle, they tried to remove me. It was not possible. It was following that, that the move against the executive came.
Well, how I survived has always been a recurring question to me. The truth is that if your hands are clean and your principles are right, God will be with you. Seriously, if you have no skeletons in your cupboard, God will defend you. I think my colleagues stood by me because they saw no wrong in me. God stood by me because I offended no one. I was simply doing the will of God according to my calling. So it was not simply possible to flush me out the way they thought.
At what point did your relationship with the executive, represented by Obasanjo, turn sour?
I think it was not personal. I know that before I became Senate president, the turbulence was much and you can feel the thickness of the problems. But then, when I came on, I did a lot of engineering, on both sides. One to reposition the understanding of my colleagues and eventually we flowed on one understanding, and that understanding was that by every means, let us negotiate with the executive and arrive at an acceptable ground or compromise. On the side of the executive too, I also tried to get them to the understanding that we can discuss and if we discuss, we can reach agreement, which was not there before.
Before then, the gap between the legislature and the executive was so thick that they hardly sat together even in official functions and of course, you know how it was with my predecessor and Obasanjo. So, I succeeded to a large extent at the beginning. But I can tell you specifically that what happened at the end was that the period we could no longer agree was the period they were test-running the plan for third term in office for the president. Obviously, my position was very clear, not in the sense that it was discussed with me and I said no outrightly, but somehow, they knew that if it came to me, I will not even entertain it So they decided to do a test-run and it didn't fly. Obviously, that was the final point of disagreement.
If you were to do your memoirs or the history of your sojourn in office as Senate president, what would you regard as the saddest day in that office?
I would say it wasn't a day; it would rather be an event. I felt Nigerians misunderstood me. As at the time the friction between the executive and us started, Nigerians did not know what we knew. We were so vilified. People were attacking us from left and right, without understanding what we knew. Eventually today, I think I can say I am the happiest man because I have been vindicated by the events that followed after me, not because I even spoke a word. I stood on a principle that because I have had a confidential relationship with the former president, I would not discuss him. I feel reluctant at all times to discuss him. But without my discussing him or exposing him, Nigerians can now see what we knew much earlier, which was the basis of the problem, and which they didn't know. Yet we were so vilified. I would rather say today, I am the happiest person.
For eight years, there was instability in the leadership of the National Assembly. Five Senate presidents, three Speakers of the House. One year into a new regime, there is apparent stability in both arms of the National Assembly. What do you think is the reason?
I am also sure that it is not only in the National Assembly that you have witnessed stability; it is a problem of leadership. It was the leadership then at the executive level that was the mastermind of the instability. I am sure, with the president we have now, there may not be any reason, any basis, or any opportunity for friction, be cause people go according to law, people follow due process, nobody is sitting down, plotting for the other. Nobody is manipulating the other. Nobody has a hidden agenda; nobody is saying one thing and doing another. Nobody is telling the public one thing and he has in mind another thing. So, I think with everything on the table, there may not be any form of friction and with the three arms of government working according to law, there won't be any problem.
Whenever you meet the ex-president again, what would you tell him?
Like I said, I don't discuss him. I won't tell him anything. He would have seen for himself because if he had at least tried to accommodate other opinions, maybe the country would not have found itself in the situation it is now. But then, he was not in a position to accommodate any other opinion and that is why what is happening presently is not surprising. I don't need to tell him anything if I see him, rather, I will expect him to tell me something.
Would you say that this new found era of freedom, due process and rule of law inspired you to seek for the office of national chairman of your party, PDP, a few months ago?
Yes, like I did tell people, if the political environment is as it was before, for no reason would I seek that office. I decided to seek the office because the political environment has changed and holds a lot of promise for democracy, due process, and rule of law. That is my life. I became what I became because of democracy and by my training as a lawyer, particularly with emphasis on human rights, which was my post-graduate programme, I am for every reason passionate about democracy, due process and the rule of law. Seeing that the platform, the political environment was getting prepared and ripe for it, and has assumed the colour and dimensions of true democracy and rule of law, I longed to be part of the process.
When you were the number three citizen, you had a heady relationship with your home state governor, Sam Egwu. What is the true state of things between two of you?
I have no problem with anybody. I have lived my life on principles. When I stand on a principle, I stand on it. For me, there was nothing I was looking for in my state. Absolutely, nothing! I am from there. I was not seeking to be a governor. I was not seeking for anything, and I am not troublesome by nature. I try as much as possible to defend the dictates of my conscience because I will account to God. Let me not be presumptuous. Now, there is a new leadership in Ebonyi, let us see what Ebonyi State will be like, not even with me, but with others. When you compare the new leadership and the former, you will know that we have a new leadership, then we will all know what the problems were before.
But there were instances when the former governor said you were ambitious and wanted to be governor and for that, you never let him rest.
Another person I don't discuss is my former governor because God has a place for everybody. During the campaigns, he said all manners of things against me and I didn't reply. I don't discuss him. I never for any reason replied my governor in all that he said about me then. I didn't even go to Ebonyi during the campaign. Many people called me and asked me why are you not replying your former governor and why are you not campaigning in Ebonyi and my answer was I should leave him to God, who will defend me. I do not need to go to Ebonyi for the peace of the state. I was Senate president. I wasn't just Senate president, I was a fulfilled senate president, and when I decided to leave office, I wasn't hungry. I wasn't looking for food. I am a professional, so when I left office, I said I was not going to anybody's office. I didn't go to anybody's office in the last four years. So, for any reason, judge within your own intelligence on whether it makes sense to imagine that after being Senate president, I want to be governor.
During the last campaigns for the PDP chairmanship, people narrowed it down to a straight battle between you and Egwu. The situation changed and none of you got it. How do you feel?
Maybe, that was the thinking of some people, but definitely, that was not mine. The only obstacle I had on my way was the former president, not my former governor, and eventually, it came to the fore that he was the only obstacle I had. To God be the glory, at the end of it, I believe it was only because God permitted it. That was why it happened the way it happened, and I accepted it immediately. I am fine about it. I have put it behind me, from that day and it is behind me. It was only because God wanted it that way.
That was why any man will take the credit of stopping me, otherwise, if God didn't plan it that way, it wouldn't have happened that way. So, I never for any reason, replied my former governor in all that they said about me then. I didn't even go to Ebonyi. Many people called me, why are you not replying and I said, for God's sake, I should be kind enough to allow my former governor have his state and for the peace of the state, I would not enter there for any kind of campaign. That was not to say I wouldn't have gotten the majority of the votes from Ebonyi. But just to make the point that it is the will of God that will eventually prevail. So, for any reason, all through my campaign I had only one obstacle, the former president.
How come the man is still an obstacle four or five years after you left office?
It is also my surprise. It is a question that only God can answer or maybe, himself. But importantly, I don't know why he should be more particularly after me, after I have sacrificed my career to prove a point that there was nothing personal, but my principles I must stand on because I must account to God. I have been vindicated. I will continue to be vindicated, even as the vindication has come, I don't even say a word, I just say God, to you be the glory.
Would you want Obasanjo to go back to jail if indicted by the various probes on his regime?
Please, I don't want to discuss the former president.
During the campaigns for PDP chairmanship, you were said to be in control of the National Assembly and also linked to former military president, IBB. How true are these?
I am sure you watched the campaign. I am also sure that you read my advertised thank you letter. The truth is that I was accepted across board. I had the support of the National Assembly. I had the support of the former governors. I had the support of the sitting governors. I had the support of the youths. I had the support of the traditional rulers. I had the support of the business community. I had support across board. Otherwise, can you tell me any particular person that was outstandingly against me?
So, the particularisation of the former president is uncalled for. It is not necessary. Every other person supported me. I can say that all former presidents supported me, except the immediate past president, Chief Obasanjo. Didn't you support me yourself? Even in the press, despite the much my opponents were doing, I still enjoyed tremendous support from the press. People I did not know in the media supported me. I had nationwide support. My campaign was a national movement. People here yearn for change. They saw the truth. They believed in me. If Nigerians had seen with me at the time, what I foresaw, what was about to happen, maybe we would not be passing this road by now. So, I had general acceptance. Everything was clear. People supported me, young and old, male and female.
Let me go back to your days as Senate president. What did Obasanjo tell you in specific terms about third term?
I said they wanted to test-run third term, and he didn't have the courage to tell me anything. He did not tell me anything. He was test-running and they thought they could whip me into line. I hope by now, you could discern the various stages of the third term programme.
One of the stages was to clean up the National Assembly, and remove everybody that was s independent minded, which was done in 2003.The other stage was to take over the party, which was effectively done. Another stage was to destabilise the leadership of the ethnic groups. It was effectively done.
Another stage was also to cow the governors, to intimidate them, which also was effectively done. At every stage, you may not know that this was the plan. Some would simply fall victims and others thought things were taking a natural course, without knowing that there were underlying currents. So, people were whipped into line, but unfortunately, it was not the case in our time. The test run yielded to exactly what happened in 2003.
Between the 2003 and 2007 elections, which would you say was better?
I may not be in a position to compare them, because they are elections conducted by one person. So, whatever be the case, I'm not in a position to compare them because nothing has changed. It was still one person that conducted the elections. I am talking about the former president.
The tribunals are overturning the results of most of the governors that came up in 2007, unlike in 2003, when the same tribunals affirmed them.
It is because the political environment has changed. If the former president were in office, you may not even have access to the courts. So, because of the new president, people had access to the courts and the courts have the courage to decide according to law. That is the only thing that has changed. There is a new person in the villa and so, situations are not the same.
What is your future in politics?
It is in God's hands. Whatever that pleases God. It is not by might. It is not by desire or ambitions. Whatever He wills; to Him be the glory.