Posted by By FUNKE EGBEMODE on
The time was 5.00P.M Wednesday and former PDP Chairman, Chief Audu Ogbeh was just returning from his farm in Kuje, on the outskirts of the Federal Capital Territory.
The time was 5.00P.M Wednesday and former PDP Chairman, Chief Audu Ogbeh was just returning from his farm in Kuje, on the outskirts of the Federal Capital Territory. In less than 10 minutes, he transformed from a farmer to an activist, crusader and a leader worried about his country. He spoke extensively with FUNKE EGBEMODE on Obasanjo, AFRICOM, corruption, cowardice of politicians and why Nigeria may be heading for chaos.
What is your take on the prospect of the US setting up an African Command in Nigeria?
To thoroughly discuss and analyse the U.S request for an African Command (Africom) is not a decision that any African leader should rush into. United States can be a wonderful partner for growth and progress but if they set up a command here, why won't the Chinese and the Russians want a command? It is the final partitioning of Africa , the last virgin continent. I hope Yar'Adua has not committed himself. No African leader should do it.
What would be the long term effect of an African Command of the U.S in Nigeria?
The only effects are negative effects considering the instability in Africa as it is. The continent will become a playground for powerful international forces and our growth on our terms will never happen. We have not yet recovered from the Structural Adjust Program(SAP) when our currency was destroyed overnight by very tricky-minded individuals in certain capitals of Europe who just decided to bury Africa for life. Why devalue our currency when we were not major exporters of any crop? The only crops we have are priced by them. I give you an example, the world coffee trade is $78b a year. The amount that goes to farmers in South East Asia , Africa and South America is $5b. $73b is in the hands of processors, marketers, advertisers and commodity traders. If they want to help, the crises in Africa is caused by hunger and poverty.
Let them come and improve our agriculture, education, health, housing. They can pay for all that with the cost of one Trident warship. They know the cost of one and they have 16 of them. If they want to help, let them sit with Africans and we will tell them what we want. And they will find Africa a wonderful place to do their business. They have the technology to discover every mineral which name we don't even know. We are not a violent people. We don't go about bombing places. We have never caused them any headache. From their experience in Cambodia , Iraq , Afghanistan , they ought to develop a new paradigm in relating with the developing world than this same approach of gunboats.
This push for an African Command in Nigeria, do you think it has anything to do with the Niger Delta?
The Niger Delta is not the only place where there is massive fortune for the future. There is the Congo . Sudan has probably as much oil reserve as Saudi Arabia and South Africa is a massive oil and gas reserve. So Africa is the last virgin land on earth and we cannot afford to share it out carelessly. We want friends who want to be our partners and they will find out that they will do exactly what they want, as they have always done. But the last thing we want is troops and tanks all over the place.
Is there a way the system can stop the President from taking such a decision?
Yes, the National Assembly can stop him. Nigerians should talk because a nation that is facing major emergencies, silence is a conspiracy. Silence on the side of anyone who has an opinion is a crime. Let nobody whisper in his toilet or grumble to his wife, let us talk. It's your country.
Silence seems to have become the watchword of Nigerian politicians in recent times. Suddenly they all of them seem to have lost their voices.
Silence has become a new virtue because through silence you can buy yourself a position or win a contract. It began under Obasanjo which is what some of us complained about and many of our party members went behind to say ‘kill him, hang him because he is arrogant,' hoping that they will benefit from it. Now that they have found their freedom, I ask them, where are the men? You are not just a man because you have an organ.
Does that mean Nigerian politicians are without courage?
There is so much silence. Why isn't anyone saying anything? They are certainly not foolish. They know what is wrong and what is right. Their silence does not portend any good. The economy is not exactly growing. Nigerians are uncomfortable. We are gradually turning into a country of beggars. Everybody you meet has a financial problem, rent to pay, car to repair, school fees to pay. All you hear are billions of dollars that we have in foreign reserve and in excess crude account. We can't see the money. That is not going to translate into any good in the long term. Indeed we are forcing an explosion upon ourselves. Something is not right and we should not wait as politicians for elections which are now being won without any contest. There is danger ahead.
The tribunals are helping those who were rigged out recover their victories by calling for fresh election, isn't that a step in the right direction?
The new election will be better rigged than the last Who is going to quarrel with another result and return to the tribunal a second time? So, it is a situation of despair and desperation. The courts are doing their bit.
How would you rate the local government election compared to the April polls?
People have been calling me from Benue from AC, my party, and I have told them not to waste their money because no result will be announced except the ones that have already been written. Why waste your time?
Is what we have really democracy then? What exactly do we have?
We Nigerians are either incapable of managing a democracy in which case we are unfortunately inviting chaos or we just wait and see like we always say: God dey. What else do you do? Who is reflecting on the matter? Unfortunately, the economy is so bad that the opposition does not have funds to play opposition politics.
Looking back at today's PDP, do you have any regrets?
If I had not left PDP, I would be dead now. After Dikibo, I was next for assassination. After I left, I survived three attempts. Gunmen actually got into my house in February 2005, stuck a gun ion my head and told me to say my last prayers. As for what PDP has become now, I hear now that it is better, that is what the current chairman said.However might is not always right. I think that the members need to sit down and take a hard look at what they have. I don't want to compare. Nigerians will do a better job. Ask people on the streets. PDP members should get more vocal and do a little internal audit of the directions in which the party is going.
With way things have gone at the tribunals, do you see a further heated polity if a fresh presidential election were ordered with an incumbent also as a candidate?
I have my anxieties about the prospect. How tidily can we organize such an election? It is something our leaders should reflect upon seriously. It is difficult to predict. I wish we didn't have to go through that process but if the court says repeat, then it becomes inevitable. I just pray that we wobble through it because the same INEC is there with an umpire that is more catholic than the pope. Iwu acted like he was the deputy chairman of PDP, challenging court decisions. It wasn't PDP that went to court, it was Iwu. He destroyed himself long ago.
What he is doing now is pitiable, ridiculous. He's finished as a Nigerian but he must keep struggling. He became a tool in the hands of a dictator. Where is a man when he can no longer stand by his beliefs. What is left of him? We all had either Christian or Muslim upbringing and the definition of what is wrong and what is right are clear. But there doesn't seem to be a difference between what is right and wrong in the new Nigeria . It now depends on your benefits. A society that degenerates to that level is dead. The future is frightening. Survival is now the key word.
What is the way out of this cul de sac?
Let Nigerians not sit back and wait for someone to come and solve their problems and when they find somebody who wants to fight for them, let them stand by him. That is why I am happy that this whole business of permission before you hold a rally is no longer legal because this is the only place in the world where you cannot picket and tell whoever is in power that he is doing something that is wrong. You force people not to talk.
You are caning somebody and you say he cannot cry That's too much like the old Soviet Union where you were not allowed to protest. It reminds me of a joke of two dogs who met at a site near the Berlin Wall before it fell. One of the dogs was from the East and the other from the West. The eastern dog was fat while the Western one was lean. The western dog was jealous and he asked the eastern one how he looked so nice. The Eastern said though he was properly fed and washed in the East, he was crossing to the West because he wasn't allowed to bark even though he is a dog. And so he was going to the West where he could bark.
You were in PDP, now in AC, what's the difference?
The difference is freedom. I am free person. I can express myself without fear of offending somebody.
How did you feel when Alhaji Abubakar Rimi and Na'abba left aC and returned to PDP?
They are mature men, adults. They must have reflected on what they were doing.
What impact will their departure have on the mileage of the AC?
It was bound to have some effect. Then you must understand that there are still people who are not sure yet of which ideological divide they belong to and they want to keep testing the grounds, maybe one day they will find it. People are bound to come and go. I do not want to take a harsh view of their action especially since some of the reasons they gave didn't sound too convincing. One of them said that there was no money in AC and that was why he was leaving. I wish they had reflected more on it.
Why has money taken the place of ideology in our politics?
Because government is the only business in Nigeria today. Bank loans are still impossible to access, never mind the reform story. Banks are permanently in the market looking for money to mop up. What they do with it, they know. We don't know. There is still no interest lower than 18%. That's not for investment in agriculture, aviation. So how does the economy grow?
Listening to you, one cannot help but despair at what is happening in Nigeria…
I can't help it. But it is still possible for people to have a forum to deal with these things. I tried two party conferences when I was PDP chairman. Unfortunately, less than half of our governors showed up. That is typical of Nigerian politicians, they don't want to discuss agriculture, foreign policy or infrastructure. There is no forum to discuss these things. What takes our time is who wants to become governors, senators, ministers and ambassadors. As far as they were concerned, I was just a theoretician, an idealist who wanted to speak grammar.
What does the death of Chief Sunday Awoniyi mean to this lack of ideology among our politicians?
He sent me a text on October 14 (He scrolls to the text and shows this reporter). 'Barka da Sallah. Please don't give up on this potentially great but thoroughly misused country.
It's a luxury we can't afford Awoniyi."
It sounded like a man giving a last minute warning, like he had premonition of death.
His son said at that time, he was saying things that sounded a bit strange about life and death. Yes, Awoniyi is gone but there are still a lot of people who feel strongly about our situation but have chosen to keep quiet. There are many people who believe that after public office, it is better to say nothing because whatever they say might endanger their safety; political or financial. When people like Awoniyi pass away, a certain shadow of darkness descends. Remember there was an attempt to kill him in his house. They said it was armed robbery but we know it was not. Many people would rather not take risks in their own country and when a country reaches a point where everybody says ‘what's my business' that country might as well give itself up as lost.
Many Nigerians, lowly-placed and public figures alike, believe that the eight years under Obasanjo, what he did or failed to do brought the country to this point, do you share that view too?
There are two sides to it. Obasanjo had his great dreams for Nigeria . He was one of the most hardworking men I've ever seen in terms of sheer energy and application to work but he was a bad politician. Yes, he held political office, he contested election but he was a bad politician. A democrat must primarily be a humble person but Obasanjo had absolutely no humility in him. He had this messianic illusion about himself that he was so great. Every human being who came his way was an instrument in his hands to promote his personal greatness. That's what ruined him. He used and discarded every body. He even used Nigeria and discarded Nigeria . Nigeria became an instrument for his promotion. There is a man called Mandela in South Africa , compare them.
Mandela is a hero in South Africa, who are our heroes in Nigeria?
Maybe, we can find them in the first republic; Awolowo, Tafawa Balewa, Michael Okpara.Maybe we discarded them too early. We were told they were corrupt. Ahmadu Bello didn't have a plot of land in Kaduna . In 2004, I sent a ram to his wife for Sallah in Sokoto. Not many people knew she was still alive. She died a year later. Okpara died a poor man.
You have to look far back for our heroes because in-between, certain factors have corrupted the polity. Money came too suddenly through the Udoji awards. Agriculture died on our hands. I don't really know if there is anybody left that we can look up to. Meanwhile I congratulate this administration for increasing the salaries of policemen. We in the AC said during our campaign that the minimum wage for policemen should be N20,000 per month. The Yar' Adua government has done well with the increment.
Would you say this government is fighting corruption the right way or are we just chasing scapegoats?
In principle the fight against corruption should be encouraged but there are two aspects of corruption here: one is engineered, the kind we see here about mindless greed, and the other one is forced on the people. We are the only developing country that wants to be among the 20 leading economies in 2020 that doesn't have a mortgage institution.
You must be a millionaire to rent a house, a millionaire to buy a house, a millionaire to die and be buried, to pay school fees. Just how much does the Nigerian earn to cope with his problems? It is impossible not to have corruption. If you are a political office holder, there is no pension or gratuity. So if you leave office without properly loading yourself and you begin to suffer, you are a laughing stock In fact, the punishment for leaving office broke is far greater than the condemnation for stealing funds from the public.
We commend corruption, clap for it as long as we pretend we don't know where the money is coming from. And if you refuse to give out money, then you are just a stingy son-of-a-bitch, pardon the language, who does not want to help. That is also Nigeria.
Let's talk about Bakassi. Was the court decision in order and good faith?
What they did was wrong at the court. There ought to have been a referendum on the matter. A piece of land is also about of the people who live there, not just the minerals. They held a referendum in Malta , an opinion poll was done and the people of Malta decided to remain where they were. Secondly, the Senate at the time failed in its duty. Some of those complaining now from Akwa Ibom and Cross River State were those who would not say anything against Obasanjo. They were such faithful followers of Obasanjo. I don't know where they found the courage to speak up now. I feel sorry for them. They want to become latter-day heroes because Obasanjo is gone.