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David Oyedepo, founder and presiding Bishop of Living Faith Church, also known as Winners Chapel, is not only famous for his ministerial work, but a prolific author and entrepreneur. Oyedepo, in this no-holds-barred interview with Maureen Chigbo, general editor, Modupe Ogunbayo-Tona and Anthony Akaeze, both assistant editors, recounts the story of his early life, the vision and inspiration that led him to establish the Living Faith Church and his plans for the future, among others. Excerpts:

Newswatch: A lot has been said about you and your ministry? When did it all start?

Oyedepo: I was born some 57 years ago, on September 27, 1954, in a little South-West town called Osogbo, though we hailed from Kwara State. At the age of six, I was taken back to the village to live with my grandmother as my mother was not interested in me growing up in that environment. We had quite a number of Lebanese and others there. A lot of the young people there were also ruffians. So, I was privileged to be taken to my maternal grandmother. It was the greatest privilege of my life because I had the privilege of very early qualitative upbringing, so much so that, in the primary school, my teachers would be amazed when I reeled out proverbs.  It was deeper than what was expected of someone of my age, and that was my kind of cultural upbringing. My grandmother was a very strict disciplinarian. You couldn’t step out of the house without telling her where you were going, and when you were coming back. And if she was not satisfied, you couldn’t move. She reposed so much trust in me that I was so conscious not to abuse the trust. My grandmother believed that I would never lie, so, for that reason, I mustn’t be caught lying. I must not dare it. My grandmother believed that, no, no, he can never fail, so, I had to work to make sure that her pride was not dampened. To her, her son would always tell the truth, so it was my responsibility to live up to that expectation, to always tell the truth. You know, you can’t find him in a careless place, so I won’t be found in a careless place. And she taught hard work by showing it. She was an old woman when I was born, but  was very hard working. She never borrowed from anyone. I was there at her death bed and they were asking her, if she was owing anybody and she said no. But  when asked if people were owing her, she said yes. Who are they, and she made a long list of them. And she said, if they pay you, take it, if they don’t, I forgive them. Now, that made me hate the word debt. Up till now, for 30 years in the ministry, we are not owing a dime to any bank or individual or organisation. Think of what we call tithing in church. My grandmother was a very devout Anglican and every Sunday morning, the old people would go to church first for holy communion, like, as it were, preparing them for their death, and she would always carry money in her hand. And I said one day, what money are you carrying to the church every Sunday morning, and she said it is God’s portion that makes the remainder meaningful. That was the toughest and deepest teaching I had on tithing. I had it as a small boy. My grandmother said, that was God’s portion that makes the remainder meaningful. So, somehow, I grew up in an environment that was God fearing, an environment of love, an environment where you wish others well, you think good of others and you want to help when you are in a position to do so. That was my kind of situation. And she was well to do, far above average. She built a house. Now, one day, when we closed from school, I saw one young man, so I went to him. By the kind of teaching they gave us, I wanted to find out if anybody was stranded.  I went to a government school in my town, It was a boarding school. So, I  went to the young man and  said, “what’s happening?”  He said, they had not sent him money  for transport and he was crying at the gate. So, I took him home and I said, this young man has no means of going home and my grandmother said, how much will he need and I replied something like this or that and she said, check the drawer and give it to him. There were no questions about who was his mother or father. She was just like that; always available to help, and that influenced my own life.

When I started school, it was in the church building. So, all of my life has been around the church. And it may also interest you to know that I was born inside the church building. My mother went for early morning prayer and she went into labour and there I was delivered. So, somehow, from the beginning, my life has been all around the church. Getting into school, for the first time in my life, it was in the church building. And I still remember my  teacher who was in the mission. So, all of that contributed a lot to my life but I had a definite encounter with Christ on February 19, 1969. That was when I gave my life to Christ and I knew the meaning of a new birth. And it will interest you to know, that some few weeks ago, I was in Florida, Orlando, to meet the lady missionary  who led me to Christ. She’s still alive. Her name is Betty Lasher. She was my teacher. She just said to me at the time, that you were born in the church, you’ve been around the church all your life, but it’s not equal to salvation, you need to know Jesus. She made me to understand  the word of God. That day,  I remember, I surrendered my life to Christ, and we prayed together and we’ve been in touch ever since that time.

Newswatch: Where did that happen?

Oyedepo: At Government Secondary School, Omu Aran. She was a missionary teacher at that time. At that time, the government engaged missionaries to teach Christian Religious Knowledge in schools. Even though the woman had a masters in Geography, she came to Nigeria as a missionary and was deployed to our place to teach. That was when my spiritual adventure actually began. And by divine privilege, among the students body,  I was appointed prayer secretary at school fellowship. And I preached my first message in 1970. That means I’ve been around the pulpit for most part of my life and from that time on, I began developing. That, in a nutshell, tells how my spiritual upbringing could be interpreted as a pointer to what I’m doing today.

Newswatch: What was your relationship with your parents like?

Oyedepo: I didn’t grow up under them. My father was a businessman and was living in Osogbo with my mother. I spent most of my adolescent years with my grandmother. I was like her pet. She would feed me with very rich proverbs. She would cuddle me and tell me stories. I knew so much about the town, so much about different families from her; the history of how people came to settle in the area, and things like that. That didn’t leave me with much time with my father and mother. But one thing about my father was that he was a workaholic. In fact, he told me before he died that, in our family, work was our identity. That is, you don’t believe in impossibilities, you work your way out of situations. By their own standard, he was a big time businessman. He was the first person to buy a lorry in my town. That was in 1954. He was also the first man to build a storey building. So, somehow, there was some level of wealth identified with our family. But he was not in support of my addiction to the gospel; he was not. He felt I was wasting  my time. But somehow, we began wasting our time together (general laughter). Even at 90, he was attending  vigils. When we started the construction of Covenant University, he came down here and brought N140,000 as his own contribution. At that time, he was 98 years old. He died at 102. So, what I learnt from him, from what I saw, is the value of hard work, that you can work your way out of pity and penury. He had challenges, he was an exporter of food produce, shear butter. But then, there was a ban on export but because he was not literate, he didn’t know. He kept on acquiring more goods until he suddenly discovered that he couldn’t move them out. So they had to go throw those things away and that was a lot of setback for him. But he still worked his way out of the problem. That I would think, I learnt from him.

As for my mother, every time we went on holiday, she had one very strange character. All the children of all the tenants in our shopping complex, my mother would cook for them every day. Not that those children complained of lack of food in their families,  but they would come and eat. And we would be the ones to wash the plates. And I said to my mother, why? They are not complaining of lack of food. And she said, your children would be somewhere someday and somebody else would serve them. I’m sure my mother learnt that from her mother; that, by helping people, you are  helping yourself, either now or in the future. All of that, I think, constitute the background to what I’m privileged to be doing today.

Newswatch: You said something interesting about not having to borrow money from anybody or bank. And looking at this university campus, how did you manage to raise the fund to build it?

Oyedepo: Well, this is one of my books (shows the copy of the book, Exploits in Ministry) that talks about how to embark on a sweatless adventure in ministry. One, if you are not called, you cannot access divine supplies. You know, you are here today as editorial staff of Newswatch because you are appointed to do the job. Whatever authority responsible for that appointment, is responsible for funding the operation, that is, how to get the materials and get the magazine published and circulated. So, I believe that, most people struggle today in the ministry because, one, they may not have been called. And if you are going to an office where you are not appointed, you never get paid. If you go to a site where you were not given a job to work, you never get paid. You can’t be paid for a contract you were not awarded. So, what I did when God called me was to ask Him: now that you have called me, who pays me? And then I took time to listen to Him for answers from the Bible, because, to steal, I cannot, and to beg, I’m ashamed. So, if I’m going to enjoy true human dignity, I must be able to access the answer to the question: Who pays me? And God answered me very clearly, that a call to ministry is not a call out of job; it’s an appointment into a new job; that He appointed 70 others also. Now, when He also called them, He told them not to carry anything along when going, that He would provide their needs. Now, when you are called, God Has committed Himself  to make supplies. Then, in the ministry, we don’t raise money, we raise people. And the people, in response to their rising by the grace of God, respond to giving for the cause of the gospel. It seems a mystery but we’ve never begged in this organisation. We’ve never put people under pressure, why because God told me, you are not sent by them, you are sent to them. They are not responsible for the going. I am the one who sent you and I am responsible for all it would take to go. Oceanic Bank, for instance, when we were to start the Covenant University project, came up, out of excitement and zeal and business interest and said look, we heard you announced that this project would be off the ground and within one year, completed. We want to be a part of it by making available to you, a billion Naira upfront facility. I said, thank you. If God cannot build it, who will run it? We don’t need it. That’s to tell you the confidence we had in the divine supplies for any divine mandate. For instance, here at Covenant University, I told the Lord, I don’t need any university because I’m not going to any school, anymore. If it is not yours, tell me and I will tear the paper now. And then, He said, it is I. So that gave all the confidence needed, to access divine supplies, to execute it. So, we did the groundbreaking in January 2002. We began construction in March 2002 and the project was completed to receive, 1500 students on October 21, seven months after. On October 21, we welcomed the first 1500 students on this ground, with road network, power, water, halls of residence,  faculty buildings and laboratories. I mean, it was divine speed; there was no technical way to achieve that.

Newswatch: Members of the  church contributed money?

Oyedepo: Yes, from the offerings that they give. From the offerings that they give and the supplies that God makes. It’s amazing.

Newswatch: But some of these people who contribute money are not able to send their children to the university because of the cost.

Oyedepo: We don’t contribute here, people give to the Lord. But you see, each one goes for what he can afford in the open market. Even the public schools they are talking about, pay as much, if not more. I just finished paying aboutN360,000 for someone in Unilag. So, people are just making noise for nothing. It depends on what you can afford. If you want to buy a car in the market, there are cars of N300,000; there are cars of one million, there are cars of five million. It depends on what you can afford. You want to buy a plane, there are planes of two hundred thousand dollars, although it may not fly. There are ones of two million dollars. The one we have is 25 million dollars. So, it depends on what you have. So, those giving are not giving so they can get scholarship, no. But it may interest you to know that from 1992, this church had been offering scholarship. Before we ever had any school or university, we had been offering scholarships to university and secondary school students.

I was telling somebody in the presidency. I said  what’s all these noise about interest free banking. Since 1992, our church has been running creativity promotion fund, giving funds to people to start small scale businesses. People have built houses from it, and it’s interest free. Today, my wife and I run an interest free funding for our family members, they access the fund, build their business and it’s recycling. So, I think that our position here is, provide services at various levels for people to access. For instance, we have day secondary school and boarding secondary school and people go to the one that they want. We have 17 secondary schools and 99 primary schools under Winners Chapel. We call our primary school Kingdom Heritage Model primary school and the secondary school, Faith Academy. We have nine of them that are full boarding and eight that are day school, so that, if you can’t access one, you access the other, and it’s open to everybody.

Newswatch: You just talked about interest free banking and we have this hoopla in the country over Islamic banking. How do you see Islamic banking?

Oyedepo: Islamic banking is just an adjective. Government provides interest free banking in the Central Bank policy, so it is allowed.

Newswatch: If it is just an adjective, why are some Christians or Christian bodies against the establishment of the Islamic banking?

Oyedepo: Because it is unnecessarily overblown to make it look like it’s an Islamic nation – that’s why. Otherwise, the provision is there; anybody can start it.

Newswatch: Should we then not talk about Islamic banking?

Oyedepo: To me, I think the emphasis on Islamic is uncalled for. It’s just diversionary, it’s unnecessary. Interest free banking is part of the provisions of the Central Bank of Nigeria. It is allowed, so, any Muslim can start it, Buddhists can start it, Christian can start it, anybody can start it. And like I told you, even though unofficial and unregistered, we have been involved in it all our years. Two years ago, we gave out about N230 million to women and men within the church system. We call it empowerment.

Newswatch: How impressed are you with the contribution of Covenant University to Nigeria’s development in the past nine years?

Oyedepo: I must tell you I’m very, very impressed; I mean very, very impressed. The feedback from  employers is most validating and the acceptability of our students or graduates in Ivy League universities is most impressive. You find them everywhere including Harvard, Yale and Oxford. They go for their Masters straight and they make it in record time. So, I’m very, very impressed. The feedback has been very humbling and why because, they are people that are found worthy both in character and learning according to the ethics of tertiary education. That’s what we set out to achieve. For instance, exam malpractice here equals expulsion, whether in the final year or penultimate year, no excuse. If you are caught with drugs, you are gone. You don’t have any way of coming back here. You steal a biro, you can’t survive here, because we can’t trust you. So, that I think we have succeeded in doing to a great extent. We may have one or two bad eggs here and there but generally it’s been very impressive. Every year, we get an award from credible sources. Last Tuesday, we had the United Nations Habitat launch here. And that’s the third university in the world where it would be launched, after the London School of Economics and University of Columbus. So I think it’s been most validating. The last ranking that was done that came out in January, this was the lead private university in Nigeria and  we are also among the first one hundred all across Africa. So, we are making some good speed.

Newswatch: There are controversies about the number of jets you have. It’s reported that you have  four jets…

Oyedepo: Maybe they don’t know how many they are; they should be about 10 (general laughter).

Newswatch: You are popular across the world. How would you react to allegations that you are a preacher who places prosperity above  the spiritual needs?

Oyedepo: (Laughs) Do you love poverty?

Newswatch: I don’t.

Oyedepo: If anybody wishes you long life and prosperity, would you answer No?  Like you said, there is no hiding place for a golden fish. The higher you go in any field in life, the more people will have to talk. But I’m happier that they don’t say that I’m the poorest man in the  world. If they say your father is the poorest man in the city, you won’t be happy. So, my reaction is simple: nobody’s money is lost, nobody has been said to be defrauded and nobody has been pressurised to do anything. But interestingly, I think I should give you this background. As far back as 1982, the Lord spoke to me that this ministry will be flying on wings across nations preaching the gospel of Christ. That time, I had a Volkswagen Beetle. We didn’t have any typewriter as an organisation but it was spoken and documented and circulated among the various things God said awaited this ministry in its pursuit. So, we are not just trying to do something, we are only working into a divine agenda.

Let me tell you how we bought our first plane in 1996. I was going to a seminar on a Saturday morning, and the Lord said to me, it’s time to get the aircraft. By that time, I didn’t know the name of any aircraft nor the cost. But I hear from God. We wouldn’t be in this bush if I’m not a man who hears from God. Because it doesn’t make any sense, it doesn’t make any intellectual or moral sense to say you are building a church and you now go to the bush. So, God said it’s time to get the aircraft and I just simply announced it after the seminar that  God spoke to me that morning that it was time to get the aircraft. Come on, let’s give. You give according to what you have. Don’t give under pressure. I can tell you here today before God that we didn’t say it more than once. It was said only once. It was a Saturday, March 21, 1996. We said it only once. By September 22, we were dedicating the aircraft. Nobody, including me, was under pressure. Nobody. Now, we bought a second one to replace that one in 2004. There was even no announcement to that effect. It was out of our excesses, out of our reserves that we bought it. We bought another one to replace that one in 2008. Again, there was no announcement. They only heard the announcement that we just bought a new aircraft and that was it. So, it’s not a thing that we were hunting for. You will be surprised to know that we didn’t pray for an aircraft. I said I was preparing for a seminar and God told me it’s time to get the aircraft. So, it’s as simple as that. So, I think that what the people are talking about is what they call the blessings of the Lord that makes rich and adds no sorrow.

Newswatch: Talking of money made by churches, do you think there’s anything wrong in government taxing churches?

Oyedepo: Government has no moral right to tax churches. All across the world, churches are tax exempted. If you are going to tax churches, let them tax mosques too. Church is not making money, church is raising people and blessing mankind. Think about how many universities were built by the church today. How many universities in this country are church based? Think of how many schools are church based, primary or secondary, Anglican or Catholic and other denomination. Church is all about blessing humanity and when God blesses men, they are a part of extending that blessing to others.

Newswatch: Some people feel that many Pentecostal churches focus more on wealth creation rather than good conduct, that their preaching are tilted more towards money rather than good conduct. What’s your view on that?

Oyedepo: Well, you cannot find original without having counterfeit. Anywhere you see counterfeit, it’s proof that there’s original. For instance, in this  church, we’ve said, if you are a drug dealer and you drop money here, you have reported yourself to God for judgement because you are destroying lives to make money and you are bringing money to God that oh, I’ve destroyed some lives and I made some money from it and this is your own portion. And we have said to people, if you are not interested in heaven, look for another church, this is not where you belong. Get out of adultery, get out of fornication, get out of stealing, because you cannot inherit the kingdom of God with it. Every church has its mandate; our church runs a 12 pillar message annually. Only four weeks of it is devoted to prosperity out of 52 weeks. Four weeks  are devoted to prayers and four weeks devoted to character. When you are a part of it, you can feel what is happening there. For instance, a woman came up yesterday, she’s been addicted to smoking and alcohol for 10 years and Jesus set her free. Someone else had been a drug addict for 17 years, Jesus set her free. A man came here, a 40-year alcoholic, had tried everything he could to get free from it, two Sundays ago, he gave his testimony, how he became liberated. So, we celebrate changed lives in our ministry more than what we possess.

Newswatch: How true is it that the 50,000 capacity church was built within 12 months?

Oyedepo: It was, everybody knows. We started clearing the ground for the building on September 18, 1998 and by September 18, 1999, we invited the whole world to dedicate it.

Newswatch: Did you set out to make history with that, because it is said to be the largest church in the world?

Oyedepo: Well, He, God, made history, because like I keep saying, we didn’t have the capacity as a church to build it, we didn’t even wait to find out the estimate.  Yet, we built it debt free. So, I think, the history is that of God not for us.  It was built within one year. And, can I tell you this again? I was on the platform 17 of September, 1998. We were closing the convention, and I said, the Lord just spoke to me that September 18, 1999, we will be dedicating the new sanctuary. It was clear but how that will be was a problem to a natural mind, but we got it done. And how did we get it done? He just gave me an inspiration. Send for all your missionaries who are into building related disciplines, because no contractor will take that job for one year, no multinational company will take it for one year, it’s impossible. So, I sent for them, and one of them was in Ethiopia. He came down here to lead the team. So, our team of pastors built that place. That would tell you how mysterious that was. When we were enlisting them, we didn’t have any building in mind but when it was time to build, we said let’s check out how many of them were into electrical engineering, architecture, building, water, you know, and before we knew it, we had 36 of them. When we called them back from where  they were and gave them the mandate, because they had the spirit of God in them, it was easy for them to believe what natural people will not believe. And then the engineer who designed the roof  which is the key thing in that project, is also a deacon in the church. He said sir, we can’t do this; I said look, God found the whole world without pillars. You shouldn’t have a problem doing this. And so, effort came into place. And Nigerian Society of Engineering had to give him fellowship for that job and that just gave him a big name all around the world. So, I think that it was purely an act of God. If there’s any history made on that score, God made it.

Newswatch: You are popular for your charity works as much as for your ministry, yet there were reports in the press last year about some pastors of the Winners Church who claimed they were abandoned by the church after sustaining injuries while on official duties. How true is that?

Oyedepo: Like I said, those are some of the comments we have here and there. The individuals, not one of them was  not properly serviced. Not one of them. In fact, I just withheld myself from pronouncing a curse on them.  Even when you are not a member of the church, they take care of you. On this road, I left a standing order in the clinic, that anybody that sustains or had an accident on this Idiroko Road, whether he’s a believer or non believer, a Muslim or animist, and they bring him to this clinic, should be put  on my charge. Because somebody died sometime ago while they were trying to get the papers. That was four years ago. So, I pay naturally every month to health centre account from my foundation. So, if we are looking after people who do not attend church, whether they had that accident on Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday, whether they are enemies or friends of the church, it doesn’t matter, how would we neglect our own people? So each of them, not one of them, has a case with any moral backing, not one. That’s why the cases died down.

Newswatch: You were in the news again sometime last year over your visit to the then ailing President Umaru Yar’Adua. After the visit, many people expected you to talk about the visit but you bluntly refused. Didn’t you think it was necessary at the time to reveal the state of Yar’Adua’s health?

Oyedepo: It was a private call. Yar’Adua was a personal friend, I’m not a government official, so what would be my responsibility of telling Nigerians what I saw. I didn’t feel it was necessary to do that. There was a vice-president, there was a minister of information, there was chief of staff.  If none of them was talking, what was my role. It was a private, confidential meeting, so why  should I come out…

Newswatch: At that particular point in time, the country needed to know what was happening to its leader.

Oyedepo: He wasn’t okay, if he were